American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1 )

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American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by billb,
Mon May 25 01:36:14 1998
I think you will find that Thor Heyerdahl proved it would have been possible for Egyptians to have sailed to the Americas using papyrus boats. That doesn't mean that they did, just that it would have been possible, given their technology at that time.
American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Mon May 25 04:54:11 1998
The piramids of egypt and America are very diferent in function, design and construction, to suggest they could be related.

The Egipt Piramids were tombs of kings, while the american piramids ere ceremonial centers(altough in some cases they were used also as tombs), something more like the zigurats from mesopotamia.

And they were made from pressed soil with an exterior of carved stone. the proportions were also very diferent, probably due to the diferent materials (they could no be made very step), for example, the piramid of the sun, in Teotihuacan, is more massive than the piamid of Giza, bu is not as high. And also there are circular piramids, like Cuicuilco.

Also it is very dificult to say that the were build on the same time periods.There are mounds in america as old as 4,000 BC,and they were builded until as recent as the spanish conquest in 16 century, that is almost all the history of civilization.

I would think that it's more probable that they were build by the same motivations, maybe innate to most humman civilization, to be nearer to their gods.

Javier Delgado

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Mon May 25 17:40:22 1998
I gathered up some more pyramids plus some other interesting stuff, here's a few more links of interest: (which I think should do for now - lots of info to sort through!)

http://www.crystalinks.com/tibet.html

http://webmongrel.com/dzone/chinapyramids/

http://www.wolfe.net/~archive/ch10.html

http://www.intersurf.com/~heinrich/wildside.html

http://www.albany.edu/~mesmith/tlapeop.html

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~hgb/1492/latinind.html

Whew! Its going to be like a jigsaw puzzle, but its interesting, trying to find hints of pre-columbian connection to the Americas.

(I'll hopefully deal with genetic leads later, once I can find enough reliable info - unless some-one else finds some first)

Note of Clarification
by liangcheng,
Wed May 27 18:58:01 1998
Just to clarify my intent with these links, I am not trying to prove anything such as extra-terrestial ancestry or other things of that likeness. I'm just posting these links to other pyramids, etc just to show that they do exist, and to try and find some kind of possible connection between all or some of them.

As for the extra-terrestial stuff, you can make of it what you wish, however the ancient legends are still of some value if one will study them "between the lines". If enough of these ancient legends are studied this way, some common denominators should emerge, so don't cast them aside as complete fantacy. After all, I don't think they would have been successfully passed down through so many generations if there wasn't a little something to them. Just trying to get to the bottom of what that something might be is what I consider a challenge of intellectual pursuit.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by cja,
Thu May 28 12:25:55 1998
I think the evidence is too grat to not agree that people came to the americas from africa.There are too many similarities with language and words. egyptian and phoenicians sailed here long ago. There are statues and other artifacts. I do have to say that I believe the olmec civilzaton was influenced by africans and the collosal heads are portraits of africans also. I do not by the concept that this was a race of indians.Where do you see any indians in all of north or south america who resemble these heads?Many people say the book by van sertima did not have facts on many subjects in the book"they came before columbus", but look at the subjects that did have facts. You cannot discredit the whole book. There are too many points being made on african language and artifacts, also eye witness stories by natives themselves about coming into to contact with black traders(not slaves).While I believe the majority of natives in the americas migrated over a land ice bridge, the native north ame rican tribes are a mixture of foreiners that came over here by boat, be it africans, phoenicians, arabs, and maybe others.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by cja,
Thu May 28 12:34:59 1998
I think the evidence is too grat to not agree that people came to the americas from africa.There are too many similarities with language and words. egyptian and phoenicians sailed here long ago. There are statues and other artifacts. I do have to say that I believe the olmec civilzaton was influenced by africans and the collosal heads are portraits of africans also. I do not by the concept that this was a race of indians.Where do you see any indians in all of north or south america who resemble these heads?Many people say the book by van sertima did not have facts on many subjects in the book"they came before columbus", but look at the subjects that did have facts. You cannot discredit the whole book. There are too many points being made on african language and artifacts, also eye witness stories by natives themselves about coming into to contact with black traders(not slaves).While I believe the majority of natives in the americas migrated over a land ice bridge, the native north ame rican tribes are a mixture of foreiners that came over here by boat, be it africans, phoenicians, arabs, and maybe others.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Fri May 29 18:11:24 1998
Yes, there are some hint that sugesst contact between the cultures, the most notable, that i know is the similarity between ceratin ceramic in the coast of peru and the ceramic of china, but also it's dificult to asses if those visits have any impact. In the case of the olmec, the satues shows hardly any similarities with any ethnic group, they were obsesed with the jaguar, and ussually they deform their factions to resemble it. So with little skeletal remains it will be dificult to justify.

Also I have hear rumors of roman figure found on Cholula.

But I have became little over skepticall, from the lost tribes of israel, to the last remains of Atlantis, there have been so many claims, so let began...

First i have a little story for you.

Have you heard of Diego Rivera , the painter, he was an amateur archeologist, once he was excavating and Aztec site, where later he build a museum, betwen the aztecs remains, he found a bottle of coke ...

So he anounce that Aztecs had invented Coca Cola :-0

Later it was discovered that there has been a three there, when the three died, the tunnels of the roots remain, someone throw a bottle on the hole, and the rest is history :-)

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by ginny,
Fri May 29 18:40:10 1998
javierd - that story is cute! When I look at pictures of Olmec carvings, I don't see an ethnic group - I see rather a physical abnormality, similar to Downs, that perhaps the "Royal" family of the time had some genetic problem, and since they must have been important enough to have their likeness carved, it was thought to be an exotic trait. Am I too far out in that supposition?

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Sat May 30 04:14:39 1998
There are olmec figures, half jaguar and half humna, and it seems the practice deformation of the skull in the infants (a least those of the upper class).

It's interesing to note that deformed people, specially dwafs, were view as sacred.

So maybe they deformed their sculptures to get this likeness, like Akenaton in Egipt, when the artist paint the people to the likenss of the deformities of their faraon...

On the other hand the negroid likenes of the colosall head may have more practical explanations, they were using stone tools to carve basaltic rock, not soft limeligh like Egypt, som of the faction of the head, like hears and hear are more carved, than sculptured so the fanctions are rounded.

Of course, it would be fabulous to find a conection with africa, but extraordinary claims, need extraordinary proofs

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Sat May 30 04:45:26 1998
liangcheng, you have certainly found some very interesting site, i still have much to read :-))

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by ginny,
Sat May 30 13:21:17 1998
jave - your input was on the lines of what I was trying to say. thanks for giving me another angle to think on.

A few more good sites
by liangcheng,
Sat May 30 17:08:43 1998
Here's a few more good sites with more interesting information to ponder over:

http://www.lauralee.com/japan.htm

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan

with an english version of the text here:

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan/english.html

http://hawk.hama-med.ac.jp/dbk/chnpyramid.html

Which contains links to these sites:

http://galaxy.cau.edu/tsmith/chinalake.html

http://www.taisei.co.jp/cg_e/ancient_world/xian/xian_01.html

And a few more goodies
by liangcheng,
Sat May 30 19:31:04 1998
And about all I can find:

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan/okinawa/okiryu.html

http://home.interpath.net/aztlan/brainrape/html/body_japans_pyramids.html

http://galaxy.cau.edu/tsmith/iceciv.html

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan/shiryo/shiryo03.html

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan/shiryo/shiryo11.html

One can only wonder how extensive this ice age civilization might have been and where they may have traveled by land and by sea.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by viper_,
Sun May 31 22:45:02 1998
liangcheng, while some of your links are very intriguing (and I still haven't had a chance to look at all of them), your statement on May 24th that all of the pyramids were built at the roughly the same time is false. Most Mesoamerican pyramids were built from 300 - 900 A.D. while Egyptian pyramids were built from 2800 - 2400 B.C. I'd never heard of the Japanese pyramids before so I can't really comment on their validity or time frame at this point.

Javierd, I'd heard a similar story with the coke bottle but concerning the Anasazi instead. Maybe that is a common archaeological joke?

I'd like to see some of CJA's proof besides Van Sertima's book "They Came Before Columbus". That book is more a novel than an analysis of history...

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Mon Jun 1 04:30:53 1998
Viper,

As for 'roughly the same time periods', I was not saying at the same time. Certain groups were built perhaps during overlaping times though.

On a related note, the circular piramid, Cuicuilco has a controversy about its age. Lava surrrounding it has been measured to be 9000 years old while the pyramid itself was dated using carbon 14 methods to be much younger. One of the 2 dating methods appears to be wrong in this case. Probably the one used to date the lava that has partially buried the base of that pyramid.

That's one to ponder over.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Mon Jun 1 11:17:35 1998
hi viper_,

The story about Diego, very known here about 20 years abo, but i have seen only printed once, but htis kind of discovering has ocurred more than once. Old threes, well, excavation and in some cases, (which the arquologis don't find very funny), pieces has been planted by the workers. (that way they insure the excavations will continue. And sometimes the pieces can be very convincing, since the original mold used to create the prehispanic figures still exists and are in production...

Alos I remember, reading about a merchant in the late of xix, that buy chineese figures, open etruscan tumbs and then closed them, as a joke for future generations :-)). Let me search for the book, it's interesting.

liangcheng, There is no controversy on the age of Cuicuilco, the date of 8,000 thousand years was a studio made about 1930 based on the sedimentation rates. This studio has been known wrong for a least 30 years, it's rather funny to see it resurrected again.

The estinated age of the conical piramid of cuicuilco is about 2,750 to 2,550 (BP) years, the lava was estimated at (450 BC), but is now considered to date to about 2200 BP (410 AD)

Check at http://www.intersurf.com/~heinrich/FOG11.html

For a more detailed explanations.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Mon Jun 1 15:57:33 1998
Hi javierd,

Thanks for the correction. Its hard sorting through all this information that I'm digging up. Its trouble enough just weeding out the 'new age' stuff from the scientific facts.

On the lighter side for fun, you might want to check out the following link :-)

http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf087/sf087a03.htm

Now for something a bit more scientific, I found this one:

http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf077/sf077a02.htm

And for a good keyword to use in web searches pertaining to the pyramids of Japan / Okinawa, try the word 'Hiramitsuto'. I admit that there will be some of that new age stuff to have to sort through, but there are also some good links as well, and even a bit of good information mixed in with that 'new age' stuff within some sites.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Tue Jun 2 10:02:49 1998
Just take it easy, i have to work also, and i wan't to read it too :))

I recomend this link

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/excavation/

There an interviu with the director of the xcavations, he confess he arived egypt as a believer of the new age stuff, now he is convinced of the power and creativity of egyptians. He also explain why he has vetoed excavation on the sphynx.

He believes that there is not enough proof of subterrranan chambers to risk damage on the spynx.

The equipment so far has detected discontinuities on the rock, which not necesarilly means caves.

The zone of Giza is made of limelight, which descompossed easlilly into cave, if there is enough water, so there I think that there is a posility of find caves, but no one knows if they could be relevant.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Tue Jun 2 10:07:06 1998
I forgot...

there is enough mystery on Teohtihuacan, the city of the gods, in this link you cand find interesting things, the text is a little dry, since it's made by archeologists but it's interesting.

try

http://archaeology.la.asu.edu/vm/mesoam/teo/index.htm

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Tue Jun 2 20:50:40 1998
Hi javierd,

I just came to the conclusion that using two different approaches to solving these mysteries may be of some possible benefit.

I have an alternative idea to try in addition to the normal conscious detective work of piecing all this information together. Perhaps if I spend the whole day, Saturday, reading and re-reading all these links, my mind will be so full of mostly un-sorted information, that when I go to sleep that night, my dreaming may mix and match some of it in ways I never would have thought of. Who knows? I might discover something interesting by accident, assuming that I can remember my dreams long enough to record them. It may be worth a try. After all, the sub-conscious mind has been known to be very resourceful :-)

Oh! and thanks for those links! I will be reading them too.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by cja,
Thu Jun 4 12:35:35 1998
Why would egypt spend millions of dollars on a project renovating the spinx and not touch the head or face?This is the most important part of the spinx.Maybe there is controversy as how it would look when if it was fixed like it was originally.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Fri Jun 5 09:38:54 1998
Thats part of the reason, today that kind of work are more conservation than restoration.

Thats probably a reaction against the excess on the past, when monuments where restored to the vision of the time and not against the few facts known.

One example of this is the Pyramid of the Sun in Teothihuacan, in 1905 the Dictator Porfirio Dias order to rebuild Teohtihuacan, for the celabration of the first century of independece.

Thousands of workers, using sometimes dinamyte, rebuild the site, and the Sun Piramid, get an extra Step :-0

The same happen in Italy, when Mussollini order to rebuild Rome.

Probably most archeologist today have nightmares about this things...

---------------------- As a corolary ...

A friend who is a true believer in esoteric told me his own verison of the piramid of the Sun...

He said that the Pyramid is an energy acumulator build by extraterrestrials, and the goverment build an extra level to keep it from working, because that would restore the unit of the earth :-/

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Fri Jun 5 19:26:09 1998
By the way, if any of you all are interested, I have another discussion going on concerning this topic in another forum. Perhaps if we could combine our resources and participate over there as well, as I have invited them to participate over here, it may prove to be beneficial for both sites, as well, leading to more expediency in finding connections and possible answers. (And you might even meet some new friends too!)

Here is the URL:

http://whyfiles.news.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/nf/twf/a/8--4.351.0.1

This topic seems to be so little heard of, but so very interesting!

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Sat Jun 6 03:49:31 1998
Hi liangcheng,

I have been reading some of the material you sugest, but to me it seem higly specullative, for example, about the Geminga supernova:
-----------------------------------
if (it's velocity) it were 200 km/sec, or 0.67 light year per 1,000 years, ...

If Geminga exploded about 340,000 years ago,
and if then were only about 300 light years from Earth, and

if its shock wave and accumulated material travelled at 400 km/sec, or about 1 light year per 1,000 years,

then they could have arrived at Earth about 35,000 years ago,

-----------------------------
To many ifs don't you think?

Of course, it is very interesting , i will continue reading more :-)

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Sat Jun 6 14:53:08 1998
Hi javierd,

Yes, there are a lot of ifs to sort through along with the other stuff. Perhaps in a few years some well known established scientific organizations may have something more substantial (and already sorted out) for publication.

But then again, if they discover(ed) something that would totally upset our knowledge of world history as we know it today, there could be some kind of problem.

Nevertheless, what I've found so far has been some very interesting reading!

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Sat Jun 6 16:29:42 1998
To make more web searching easy, here is a good link:

http://ms1.dogpile.com/search?q=Hiramitsuto&fs=web&ss=stop&to=twenty

Enjoy! :-))

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Sat Jun 6 16:44:20 1998
After going there I found such things as these:

http://home.interpath.net/aztlan/brainrape/html/body_japans_pyramids.html

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan/hiramitsuto/photo01.html

And thats only a beginning!

Enjoy! :-))

WOW!!!
by liangcheng,
Sat Jun 6 20:23:53 1998
After exploring these websites a little more, I'm really beginning to wonder just what the western media is trying to hide and why?!

I believe I'm really hooked on an information feeding frenzy now! :-))

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Mon Jun 8 02:02:58 1998
Well i think we all have to take it easy' i think it as Mr. Spok who said:

It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that you bain may slip off :-))

To my the most interesting part is the high politics (or dirty?) involved with the piramid of Khufu ( Keops)

the story begins very inocent,

And engineer Rudolf Gantenbrink, is examining a shaft , while instaling a new ventilation system for the piramid. He sends a little robot trough an opening that it was belived to be 6 mts. long, he finds it's really 60 mts. At the end he finds an obstruction, so he gets his robot and then he try to get an optical fiber to see if he can find somthing behind the obstruction.

But he let the nottice know to the press, and the...

A puzzled enginer is fired

The press annonuce that a door with brass handles has benn found. http://www.m-m.org/~jz/sphinxn.html

Another press announce that a new chamber has been found, an a black statue was found.

AN organisation http://melanet.com/clegg_series/diop.html acusses the archeologist ti hide the truth behind the black people in Egypt.

An Angry Dr. Hawass atacks the press and declare, there is nothing there.

A still puzzled engineer offers to teach the egyptians to use his robot.

A still Angry Dr. Hawwas, says he has spoke with the engineer, reexaminzed the Videotape, and found nothin new.

And then i fund that the Author of fingerprints of the Gods(who supports that the piramids are older than 11,000 years, who seems to be the antagonist of Dr. Hawass , is now his best friend...

wow, that better than TV...

to be continue, the next week, on the same channel.... .

WOW, this is better than TV!
by liangcheng,
Mon Jun 8 17:21:58 1998
Javierd, I agree. We should take it easy and enjoy the show :-))

By the way, have you had a chance to look at this one yet? (which was buried in one of my last links)

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan/hiramitsuto/photo21.html

At first I didn't see anything, but after looking for a while, I began to see a crowd gathering :-))

An interesting photo, I must say! I only wish I could have a large poster size copy of this. It sure would make a good conversation piece :-))

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by cja,
Tue Jun 9 12:23:36 1998
On the Olmecs collosal heads. I don't see how anyone can come up with some ideal that the heads looked deformed. That one was a first.If you use the egyptian Akenaton as a example. He wasn't "deformed ". He was just very peculiar looking.Those carvings were done masterfully.They were all different people and the jaguar is used in certain statues, but not the collosal heads. They were 100%human.I don't bye the extra-terrestrial theory either,or the theory about the statue carvers not having the right tools to give the staues a narrower nose or thinner lipps.It's funny to listen to all of the excuses people come up with to deny the fact the the portraits were of african people.When people do admit that they were of humans and very accurate, I heard some say that they were asian or oriental.Every thing except black.But the works are so obvious, people come up with outrageous ideals that are quite amusing.But this is nothing new. The same thing is going on with ancient Egypt.Blacks could not have been the originaors of it, and if black stautes are found or painting or pictures are found. They are kept from the public or ignored.But as the years go by, the truth will come out.You can only suppress the truth for so long. Peace

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by cja,
Tue Jun 9 12:29:29 1998
On Van Sertimas book. To be truthfully honest, I think all of his books and this one in particular has the same effects on supremest as a black cop.Peace

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by cja,
Tue Jun 9 12:43:50 1998
To JavierD. Thank you for the address melanet.com/clegg_series?diop.html It is a very informative site and Soemthing I will enjoy in the future.

Peace

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Tue Jun 9 13:16:26 1998
Hi Cja,

Craneal deformation was in vogue in ancient mesoamerica, just see the Maya skulls, it was a mark on nobility.

Unfortunatelly there are no Olmec remains to corfirm or deny. Last week i went o the "Museo nacional de antropologia" ,to check, and i can asure you that the colossal head are stilized.

Several of the structure of the head, like hears, hair stiling, and other objects are carved, just enough to be discerned. they live in a forest and stoen tools were valuable.

I you want to see theyre more clearely you must see the little statues and figures. There is and specially beatifull, it's called the wrestler, and it looks mongolic.

And there are a lot of olmec figures half human, and half jaguar.

So, to try to look for race on this faction can be misleading.

And i don't deny that they may look like black people, i myself probably have some black ancestry, it's just that there still litlle proof of that.

I don't imagine a black migrations tht came and disspear whithouth traces, ther should be somthing more, the had to stop in the islands in beteween and there should be more teltale artifacts.

there is anether hipotesis that they have chinesse influence, since somone could read some writing in and olmeca articat, but again there is little proof of that to.

Or is it too hard to believe that they do all that by themselves?.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Tue Jun 9 15:53:11 1998
Does any-one know of any good URL's which pertain to the genetics of various indiginous tribes throughout the Americas, or is this research still too preliminary with the only good information still only accessable to those involved in this research?

I'm sure if some good links can be found, it might answer a lot of questions, but at the same time it might create a mountain of more questions.

By the way, I have been looking, but without much success.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by cja,
Tue Jun 9 16:39:06 1998
Javier. Are you famaliar with american indians telling columbus of seeing blacks and trading gold with blacks? Or blacks waging war with south american indians and being captured?There is much oral and artifactual evidence of the african presence in the americas, but instead of people investigating this and finding more information on this, they seem to take offense and try to find why this couldn't be true.Instead of looking for a reason why people do want to believe this, lets look at it from a positive viewpoint and investigate how and when they did come to the americas.To me this subject is taken as a threat to some people, who will stop at nothing to descredit this subject.Same as with ancient Egypt.But what these people don't realize is that they look so blantant and obvious.The more they deny it, the more they look like fools and the movement for the truth gets bigger and bigger.When people won't even debate the issue, they are scared of something.It's just like offering the people fres h fruit or rotten fruit.They know which is which.And I think by not ddebating with the other side, they think the people will not find out that they are offering rotten fruit.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Tue Jun 9 19:22:41 1998
It seems to me that western civilization is still recovering from the repercussions of the 'dark ages' of European history when nearly all the old knowledge and vestiges of civilization were lost. Most people have no real conception of just how 'dark' that time was, and with the inquisition also occurring as well, one can only wonder how any of the old knowledge could survive, except if it were recorded beforehand and misplaced, hidden or lost, and not found during this very dark time in history, but only to be re-discovered today or in the future, if it is still intact and translatable.

The 'American history' books that some of us read, while in school are good examples of what the repercussions of this dark era in time has done. Although it is not directly stated in these textbooks, it is strongly implied that the Native Americans had no history! What can be farther from the truth?(!!!) It was the Europeans that lost their history!!!

Well, enough said. Sorry if I offended anyone. Just had to get this off my heart.

Well, back to hopefully unbiased discussions. (Its often difficult to recognize bias, when our only available sources of information are so limited.)

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by wellingtonian,
Wed Jun 10 17:36:59 1998
How come this thread is soooo much more relaxed than the sphinx one?

Glad to see the attempts to filter out the fantasy from fact, and I am growing rather jealous of all the sites that you lot have been exploring - gotta get a system at home fast!!!!

One little thing though - Some information on Akhenaton that I have read about has it that he was - um - deformed in real life. It is a syndrome that we know of today that effects the whole body structure, but certainly the face, arms and around the hips/thighs. I will try and find the name, as I cannot remember it.

The statues in the Cairo museum are indeed impressive, but I fear for their future in that museum, wonderful and fascinating though it is (2 days minimum for the enthusiast I assure you!!), as they are not as well tended for as we would like.

Liangcheng, I am overwhelmed by the superabundance of sites you have listed. Could you perhaps help out by giving me/us a list of say the 5-10 'best' places to go now that you have been immersed for some time in the subject? I should myself prefer those with some academic credibility, but over to you on that.

I can catch up on the rest when I have a home system!

Regards Interesting stuff!

Some of my favorites
by liangcheng,
Wed Jun 10 19:01:29 1998
To Wellingtonian - a NZ'r? if so, Kia Ora! (I do love those old Maori wood carvings!!!)

Well, back to the subject at hand: Here are 12 of my favorites so far for a starter. (note: some may require a little 'sorting') These are selected 'repeats' out of the above lists.

http://www.sinanet.com/sinorama/0697/english/1.html

http://www4.linknet.net/s_potato/history.htm

http://www.crystalinks.com/tibet.html

http://webmongrel.com/dzone/chinapyramids/index.html#

http://members.tripod.com/~Aiminami/muandpyr.htm

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan/okinawa/okiryu.html

http://home.interpath.net/aztlan/brainrape/html/body_japans_pyramids.html

http://galaxy.cau.edu/tsmith/iceciv.html

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan/shiryo/shiryo03.html

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan/shiryo/shiryo11.html

http://hawk.hama-med.ac.jp/dbk/chnpyramid.html

http://plaza14.mbn.or.jp/~taizan/hiramitsuto/photo01.html

Enjoy!

Forgot to add
by liangcheng,
Wed Jun 10 19:11:10 1998
It might be wise to copy this thread, just in case the DCOL server crashes again.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Thu Jun 11 10:13:59 1998
Hi cja,

I am familiar with Columbus, and how he said that the indians told them that ther were indians with dog faces who eat people, but you must also remember that Columbus translator, was a jew who only speak Arabic.

I recomend to you the book, "The man eating myth" by W Arens, it shows how the epitet of cannibal, has been used to justify many things. And how columbus, has the sad honour of being the first of use it, originating the word Cannibal (from Caribe).

Most of the those proof you are citing, are rather anedotical, but if something apear, probably it will discoverd by accident and not prusposeddly, as all great discovers had been found.

Now, believed of not, i understand your feelings, no negate Afrcan or black civilizations, and protrait Africa as a place of ignorance, the many sins comited are more easily acepted. Many archeological places in africa, has been atribuited to White people, as if they could had not could be done by black.

The sensation is familiar, and that is why so many speciallist on precolombin cultures are easylly ofended, for many years indians has been denied to be able to build their own culture.

So peace brother, better help us, with the things you know, , for example i did'nt know about the Amazonian indians. Can you get more info about this?

What artifactual evidence are you refering?

Hi liangcheng, Considered it done.

Mayan, olmec, Nazca, cuicuilco, Tajin etc. has been atribuited, to the los tribes of israel, to vikings, to phoenicians, to extraterrestrials, to chineese, etc. So to acept a new hipotesys will need a hard proffs

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Thu Jun 11 10:35:32 1998
Liancheng I just remember what a German archeologist said:

First we burn their history, and then we denied they have it...

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Thu Jun 11 16:28:22 1998
Speaking about Maori woodwork, now this was a canoe!!!

http://www.soc.auckland.ac.nz/museum/canoe.htm

If you click on the small picture you can get a better view of it.

Does anyone know if the Maori or their ancestors built more of these sized canoes or boats with this magnificence and size in the past and how far back into the past?

Now addressing the issue of Easter Island: The people that originally colonized the place, obviously had to come as families, or a least males and females. A lost boatload of fishermen cannot reproduce themselves. Using further logic, since Easter Island is such a small location compared to the entire Pacific coastline of the Americas, wouldn't there have been a much higher probability for 'boat families' to have also landed somewhere upon this coastline? Just some conjecture to think about.

Oh, before I forget, just because these people did not have gun powder and cannons for thier boats or weapons did not mean that thier boats were any less sea worthy.

My guess would be that people from all over the world populated the Americas in pre-columbian times, and travel by sea was a whole lot more common during these times than popular bias would lead us to believe.

Also in pre-columbian times there was not this fixation to immortalize peoples names for thier (re)discoveries and gold in the new world was used more for utilitarian purposes.

Well, back to the great archaeological American jig-saw puzzle mystery :))

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by ian1,
Thu Jun 11 17:06:02 1998
A few months back I watched a special on the stone block temples/structures in mexico. Of particular interest was the discovery of small pieces of metal of the same size and shape that went between the blocks of stone in these structures. They are flat, about 4-5 inches long, and are wide on either side and very slim in the middle. There are indentations in the stone for the wide portion to fit into, thus connecting the stones together for added support. What is amazing about this discovery, is that the creators of this structure must have had the technology to pour molten metal into a mold to create these(being that they were made of iron). How could this technology be lost from the Americas, and where did it come from? It could be that people of European or Egyptian decent established themselves thousands of years ago, only to be killed by natives, disease or 'who knows'- their technology being lost with them.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Thu Jun 11 22:02:18 1998
One thing to keep in mind is to not under-estimate the technologies of ancient cultures. In past history it is known that much of the technological know-how was kept among the elite (priests, rulers, etc.) and the common person was generally unaware exept for their particular function within that society. The elite were usually targeted in the past turbulences in which the controlling powers changed hands. Lose the elite, and the knowledge is also lost.

Today things have been much different, in that there has been the industrial revolution compounding things, in which case a much greater cross-section of society is aware, along with the exponentially increased usage of these technologies, a resultant factor of rapidly depleting supplies of natural resources has occurred, which there is little past evidence of having ever happened.

In other words, a lack of evidence for a former industrial revolution of this magnitude is what we actually know that we have found. Just exactly what the elite knew back then is still a mystery with sketchy clues.

As for ancient watercraft, perhaps the deepest portions of the Pacific or Atlantic oceans may still hold some clues as to ancient sea-faring vessels and the technology of transport during those times. Things generally remain intact for much longer periods of time at greater depths, but being made of wood or the like, it also creates a greater difficulty for detection. But then, if some-one did find something significant down there and analyzed it thoughly, would the evidence be accepted by a biased majority? I believe it would take multitudes of such finds to do this. That I believe, is the root of where the current problem is, as I see it.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by mohawk33,
Fri Jun 12 02:00:20 1998
Liangcheng,

Seems that I remember some royal societies did immortalize themselves, family and high ranking officials. Their exploits and conquests were carved for all to see (and later rediscover) and on one pyramid (temple?) the names of past kings were inscribed. As for gold being used in a utility purpose (I'm assuming you mean tools), I can't think of anything worse to use except lead. It's strength doesn't lend itself for use in blades or armor. If your meaning is for cups, spoons and serving plates, then I would say somewhat. I wouldn't call masks, earings and necklaces utility items, though. If you're wanting evidence of early man (pre industrial) depleating his environment, check up on Mesa Verde and other cliff dwellers. Some of the logs used to build with in the newest additions were brought from over 60 miles away. No one ever dragged a log 60 miles if they could get it at 30.

Ian1,

I saw a program on the same subject (same one?) several months ago, but I remember the metal as being copper, not iron. The pieces weren't molded and then put in place as in some childrens toys today, but the stones themselves were the mold. The molten metal added strength as it cooled just as hot rivetting has done for ships and buildings before welding became widely used.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Fri Jun 12 04:33:39 1998
As for evidence of early man (pre industrial) not depleating his environment, I was referring to a lack of extensive open pit mines and things of that nature as well as the fact that we still had plenty of high grade ores available until lately.

As for people being immortalized, I was refering to conquering whole land masses and naming them after people of that society who discovered them. Royal societies did howecer immortalize themselves by carving their names into stone, but thats a little different.

Oh well, back into the www for some more explorations.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Fri Jun 12 18:06:58 1998
While looking for a good picture of the open pit mine called 'The Lavender Pit' in Bisbee, Arizona, I got sidetracked by all the various interesting links on one of my web finds. Found this link in a roundabout way, which may keep others and myself busy for a while:

http://hanksville.phast.umass.edu/misc/NAresources.html

This has about every link imaginable relating to Native Americans.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by mohawk33,
Fri Jun 12 18:48:58 1998
Liangcheng,

Ok. Thanks for the clairification. I've been to Bisbee, and have flown over that mine. It was huge 15 years ago. I can only imagine how much larger it is now.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Fri Jun 12 19:55:25 1998
first, an apology, i have seen that my last postings were more inconex than usual, if someone need a translation, please tell me, i really need to check what i am posting :-(

Hi ian1, Can you remember where it was?, this is the second reference to a piece of iron in prehispanic buildings, a it's interesting, buti really would like to check it.

I doubt that it could be used as a reinforcment, but if that was the case probably was forged, not melted.

Iron has a very high melting point. It was not unitl the xiii centuy AD in germany when it was posible to melt iron, all the implements of iron has been forged.

I don't doubt that aztecs or other ancient people knew about iron, since the minerals of iron has been used for thousands of years, there an hematine mine in the midle east that it' at least 10,000 years old. And the extraction of iron form hematite and other oxides, it's very easy, you only have to put a big fire on it.

But when Copper and bronce (which are much more dificult to extract) were discoverd they displace iron, because they are superior. They can e melted, they do not rust they can be fixed and they are stronger (belive or not). Most of the iron objecs of that era are probably curisosities, like the iron amulets in Tuhamkhamen tumb.

It was not until a new discovery was made that iron became important. It was steel. Steel it's an alloy of Iron and carbon. But the technology to this, need almsot idustrial technollogy, whre furnaces could be used for days and days, since you need to put a piece of iron in a furnce for severall hours of days, before enough carbon difusses to get steel.

i would like to know why no history book i know, alk about this imporant diference between iron and steel.

I was fascinated by this (as if you haven noticed) afster i made my tesis about carburization.

Very few books of history show the impact of technology on history, and only very recently the ancient technologies and moethod has been tested.

Sometimes things look harder than they were. Like the case of the Island of Pascua (eastern), Thor Heyerdall, decide to try how they could move the statues, so he invited the people of the town to try to move one of the status, so the put ropes, sticks, etc. then every body pull, and they had to run, because the statue moved too fast. :-))

And in other cases theere are new misteries...

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Sat Jun 13 05:52:37 1998
Hi

Here are some links relating to the genetic of the population of America.

As ever, there are two extremes, a date as recent as 13,000 BP to a date as older than 40,000.

From what i read, i get to conclusions, Agruclture began in america about 10,000 years ago, a date much older than has been tought

And genetics and linguistisc sugest an earlier date, about 30,000 years. yet i have not found noting that sugest migrations from other sources than asia, but this seem to be much preliminary, since the populations studied are small.

Their statistical analyses suggest that modern Native Americans share a single group of ancestors who lived in North America at least 25,000 years ago--and more likely between 30,000 to 40,000 years ago.

An genetic Study about bears show that they have continuously inhabited the Alexander archipelago for at least 40,000 years and that habitable refugia were therefore available throughout the last glaciation.

Archeologists on the other hand, say that there were multiple waves, since there are diferent american culture, that are at leat 10,000 years old.

"MOLECULAR CLOCK PLACES HUMANS IN NEW WORLD 22,000-29,000 BP" http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf093/sf093a02.htm

"Message 1: Re: 5.1500Comparative method, Polarization & review" http://www.sfs.nphil.uni-tuebingen.de/linguist/issues/6/6-10.html

An Ice Age Refugium for Large Mammals in the Alexander Archipelago, Southeast Alaska http://www.usd.edu/~theaton/alaska/pubs/qr1996.html

Physical Anthropology Update
http://mhhe.com/socscience/anthropology/news/afall97.htm

Earlier Arrival for Earliest Americans http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/97_12now/971223b.html

So far, it seems that if was colonization from other sources, it did not have impact on the genetic pool of the population.

Now, back to piramids..

It has been estimated that in mesoamerica there are more than 10,000 piramids, but why ?

sometime ago, a read an article in scientific American, sugesting that that this huge proyects had an stabilizing efect on cultures, usually the culture that use their energy to create this proyects are culture that survive for hunded of years.

Because they have way to canalize the energy of their population, od course, they can be used to build dams, channels, but they also get involved in great things.

what do you think?

Javier Delgado

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by asherman,
Sat Jun 13 12:45:05 1998
Since technology predates the invention of recorded history, we are left to infer events on the basis of artifacts that we have found. Stone and bone are about the only materials used in ancient times that have survived. Stone tools are one of the most important means for us understand really ancient human cultures. Pre-metal technologies are usually divided into Paleolithic (Old Stone) and Neolithic (New Stone) cultures. Paleolithic cultures made their tools by chipping a stone into the desired shape. Neolithic cultures are typified by their sophisticated chipping techniques and by their use of grinding to create a wider variety of artifacts. Neolithic cultures also created artifacts that were used to adorn the human body, represent their religious beliefs, and to satisfy their aesthetic needs. Humans began using metals during the Neolithic period, but

Some might ask that I give some dates bracketing Neolithic and Paleolithic periods. Sorry, Charley. The Paleolithic period may have begun before Homo Sap had made his appearance, and merged only gradually into the more sophisticated stone work of the Neolithic. Neolithic peoples still existed clear up into the mid-twentieth century. The Indian populations of the New World are generally believed to have been Neolithic before European discovery in the 15th century BCE.

We sometimes find metals being used by Neolithic cultures. Rich metallic ores that have low melting points must have been discovered reasonably early. Copper, gold and tin are examples of metals that we associate with early metallurgy. A small pool of one of these metals might have formed in a large campfire. Probably the metal was first forged, that is pounded into simple shapes. Casting, molding the molten metal into a pre-formed shape, is a more sophisticated means of using metal. Metals like gold, copper and tin are all too soft to be used very effectively for tools, so they were usually used to create ornamental and religious artifacts. The earliest copper trinkets known are from about 6500 BCE in what is today Turkey. So far as I know, the Indian peoples of the New World never progressed beyond this stage, though their artistry with gold is well known.

We next find copper being used in Mesopotamia around 5000 BCE, almost 1,700 years before writing began to be used in Sumer. The first writing seems to have appeared in Egypt about 200 years later, around 3100 BCE. Both writing and the use of copper seem to have spread widely from those early origins. In China, the earliest culture seems to have been the Yang-shao. The Yang-shao seem to have been migratory around the bend of the Yellow River, and created beautiful gray pottery. I don't know of any metals associated with the Yang-shao. We see, however, the beginnings of the Bronze Age during the Shang Dynasty 1523-1027 BCE. We think there must have been some metallurgy previous to the introduction of Bronze, but there isn't any record that I know of. Chinese Shang bronze-ware is without peer. Even today we would have difficulty in producing bronze castings comparable to Shang Dynasty.

The next step was the understanding that an alloy could be formed by mixing two different molten metals. The development of alloys was an important step. The alloy of copper and tin, for instance, is Bronze. Bronze is much harder than either of its constituents, and Mankind had it's first practical man-made material for making tools and weapons. The Bronze Age began in the Near East around 2800 BCE, and lasted until displaced by the Iron Age around 1,200 BCE. Pre-dynastic Egypt in the period before 3000 BCE used copper, and Egyptian conquest of Nubia (a source of important ores) seems to be closely associated with the beginnings of Dynastic Egypt. Bronze was the metal of choice for over a thousand years. Troy was built and destroyed during the Bronze Age.

The use of iron is general thought to have started around 2500 BCE in the Middle East. Though iron is about 500 times more plentiful than copper, it is also much harder to extract from ore and work. Iron has to have some carbon to give it strength, and it has relatively high melting temperatures. Even though iron began to be worked not long after Bronze captured the world, it remained scarce and expensive for a long time. Iron-tipped plows were used in ancient Palestine, and may have, along with chariots, given the Hyksos the edge they needed to conquer much of the region.

After 1000 BCE iron increasingly displaced Bronze. Mining and the production of metals for tools and weapons required a sophisticated bureaucratic organization. Slaves to work the primitive mines was one important reason to wage war on oneit's neighbors. Iron remained the primary material from which tools and other items were made for another 3000 years.

During most of that time, metallurgy was only a sub-set of alchemy. When European rulers got themselves into an arms race to gain military superiority by possession of the best, most reliable cannon, metallurgy began to emerge as a separate science. The advent of the scientific method and a more sophisticated technological infra-structure made possible the large scale manufacture of steel. Steel had, like iron, been known for many years but was too difficult to produce in large quantities. Samurai swords were among the first examples of laminate steel.

I've mentioned the importance of the Krupp Steel Works in Germany, and the importance of production steel in America is well known.

My grandchildren are clamoring for me to get up and take them out, so I guess this had better stop here.

Asherman

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Sat Jun 13 13:14:14 1998
Javier D,

Great links! They do seem to support the recent articles in the LA Times concerning the gentics of the earliest American inhabitants. The brown bear fossil findings and studies also seem to indicate a good habitat over land (near the coastline) for "migrations" as well for the entire time of glaciation. (humans and brown bears have had similar habitats)

As for channeling the energies of the populations to build these pyramids of mesoamerica, the idea of a stablizing effect on the society is correct in my assumption. Religions can be a major influence upon the motivations of a society and perhaps pyramids played an important part of their religions. Ah! But where did all these various cultures in such remote places get this same idea?

I wonder if their is some kind of science that traces religions back in history (does this science have a name?), just as Liguistics can be used to trace back languages?

Traditional musical instruments, musical scales used, etc., may also have possibilities of use as a "tracer". Just wondering what this science would be called?

By the way, its beginning to look like this thread may have to be branched off in a tree formation in the future.

APh&P(Part 2): Pyramids

APh&P(Part 2): Genetics

APh&P(Part 2): Linguistics

APh&P(Part 2): Archeaology

APh&P(Part 2): Religions(?)

APh&P(Part 2): Music(?)

Wow!!! Thats a lot of branches! Any-one have any better ideas? Maybe we just go to part 2 and keep everything together. I don't like having to go thread jumping to put information together. I think I'll vote for just a (part 2) for the future.

Somebody could start up a whole website up with this thread!

Well, back to more explorations :-))

Another place to spread out
by liangcheng,
Sat Jun 13 17:27:00 1998
This website seems to be relatively inactive, but offers the option to hyperlink the URL's.

The Why Files

http://whyfiles.news.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/nf/twf/a/1

The 'Opinion corner' for the miscellaneous aspects of this and perhaps 'Plants, Animals, & Humans' section may be a good place for the genetics side of this.

By the way, I have posted a few things over there in the past but the responses were not so frequent. Since the Why Files has got real slow, we might be able to speed it back up and put it to use, in addition to DCOL. What do you think?

Just posted a link over there to here
by liangcheng,
Sat Jun 13 17:50:09 1998
I just posted a link over there to here in the 'Opinions corner' under "The populating of the pre-columbian Americas', if any-one is interested in participating there too.

http://whyfiles.news.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/nf/twf/a/14--4.356.1

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Sat Jun 13 23:51:20 1998
hi asherman,

Welcome to this thread, you gave us excelent info, i disaggre only in a minor point.

Iron ore are very common, and the extraction of iron is very easy, since most of the iron ores are oxides, if you compared to copper, which most ores are sulfur compounds, so sulfur must be eliminated first (roasting), and then reduced to get the metal.

But you are right, the iron obtained by this method is very soft and it's not very usefull for making tools (i would like to know the carbon content in the iron amulets found in King tuth tomb).

To me the interesting part it was that probably it was not the discovering of iron, but the process to enriched it with carbon (carburization) and obtain steel what gave advantage and started the iron age.

Just think of it, after the called people from the sea, disrupted the comercial trade, tin and copper were scarce, so maybe they had to use that lousy metal, iron.

so they put it in a furnace with a lot of carbon, and maybe some lime, to heat it, it had to stay there for at least 6 or 8 hours, then it was forged, and quenched. And suddenly they obtained a material much stronger than they had dreamed.

A soft core and a hard edge, the ideal sword, it should had been looked like magic.

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Sun Jun 14 00:02:02 1998
I just remember a metalurgical technollgy from ancient southAmerica.

They use alloy of coper and some gold. After the objects were made, the heath the objets until some of the superficial copper was oxidized. Then the oxide was cleaned and the object was polished.

The loss of coper in the surface gave a surface rich in gold,so the object looked like pure gold.

So the Conquistadores destroyed many beatifull objects, only to get a very low quantity of gold....

Javier Delgado

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by javierd,
Sun Jun 14 00:09:50 1998
Hi Liancheng.

Most of the musical instruments recovered from mesoamerica are flutes.

There are some flutes double and triple, sugesting that they knew harmony.

But they had not a fixed scale like ours.

Although their scale has been defined as pentatonic. it's probably microtonal, since they did not use temperated scale we use today.

It seems there are some studies here, form then National School of music, but i have never found nothing published :-((

I amd not shure about joining other forums, i have barely time to check the material we have on this one :-))

Javier Delgado

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Sun Jun 14 05:42:55 1998
As for joining other forums maybe they join ours? I did find another very good (GREAT!!!) link to explore.

http://galaxy.cau.edu/tsmith/iceciv.html

Seems to be very informative!

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Sun Jun 14 13:40:20 1998
I admit that there is some questionable material within this above link, but also some good information. How you want to sort it out is up to you all.

It is however some very interesting reading :-))

American Pre-history & Pyramids (Part 1)
by liangcheng,
Sun Jun 14 15:29:48 1998
It seems that my above link is a repeat that has been recently updated! I thought a lot of it looked familiar when I really got to digging into the links.

Oh well. I guess that I was in a bit of a hurry. This thread is getting long, so I'll start Part 2.

It might be wise to make a text copy of this thread as well as a bookmark for future referencing.